In this #UXIgnite fireside chat, hosted by Kuldeep Kelkar, Senior Partner, UXReactor, Janelle Estes, Faculty Lecturer, Bentley University and former Chief Insights Officer at UserTesting. They discuss various topics related to the UX industry, including the implications of AI, future skills, amplifying impact, and transitioning into leadership roles.
Takeaways
- The UX industry is constantly evolving, and professionals need to stay curious and innovative to keep up with the changes.
- UX practitioners should speak the language of the business and demonstrate the impact of their work on key metrics and goals.
- Deepening expertise in a specific domain or industry can be a valuable career path, even without transitioning into people leadership roles.
Transitioning into leadership requires not only managing teams but also effectively communicating with stakeholders and managing up.
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Full Transcript
Kuldeep Kelkar
Today, we have a special guest, Janelle Estes. She’s an educator, lecturer, author, used to be a Chief Insights Officer at UserTesting. Welcome, Janelle.
Janelle Estes
Thanks, Kuldeep. It’s great to be here.
Kuldeep Kelkar
Yeah, nice to have you. Super excited about today’s session, by the way. You’ve been a practitioner. You have been in, and now you are an educator. So I know the community has a whole range of questions, and we would love to chat with you. But why don’t we get started with a general introduction? Tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into UX, and what are you up to these days?
Janelle Estes
Yeah, for sure. So I didn’t set out on my career path to be in UX. In fact, UX wasn’t really that well-defined when I was figuring out what I wanted to do when I grew up. I actually went to a business college and focused on majors like accounting and finance and economics and realized those things weren’t for me. Although I was told I was going to make a lot of money if I went into those fields. So that was sort of what I was seeking, oddly. Probably not oddly, I feel like that’s probably a fairly standard move by a high school graduate. But I stumbled upon a program at the school I was at, Bentley University, called Information Design and Corporate Communication. And it really opened my eyes to this world of building experiences for people and considering the user or the human at the center of all of the decisions that you make about your product or your design or your experience. And so I sort of bit by the bug at that point. I got my undergraduate degree and then I moved into a customer service role. So I was answering the phone at Forrester Research for people who couldn’t find things on the website. And I remember this woman who ran the web team would take me out to lunch once a month. And this was before we were able to really track these issues in any sort of system… I’m really dating myself here. And she was sort of like, well, what are people calling about this month? And I would tell her. And then she would go back to her team and she would ask them or guide them in making updates and improvements so we could kind of reduce the call volume. And it was also at that time when I realized the importance of not just designing things for people and your customers because it’s a nice thing to do, but because it actually has a pretty massive business impact if you’re able to do things like reduce support call volume. That’s a very tangible cost.
So from there, it was a lot of sort of journeys through Forrester research, going back to graduate school to get my master’s in human factors and information design, some work in-house at software companies doing human factor related work. And then I made my way over to Nielsen Norman Group with Jakob Nielsen and Don Norman. I was there for about seven years. And then I sort of saw a shift in the market where my clients and my customers at Nielsen Norman Group and the primary research that I was doing was moving online. And so at that point, I was really interested in being part of that change and evolution. So I joined UserTesting. I was there for eight years, most recently as the Chief Insights Officer, which really meant that I was representing our customer in the market, in the industry, at the executive level, at the board level. I was very influential in things related to product strategy and go to market and our customer success motions. So it was really a dream opportunity for me. I like to say I got to research how research teams do research. So very meta. And you know, at a certain point in time, I felt like all of the exposure that I had had to these teams and to the industry and just the learnings that I had acquired over my couple of decades in the field could be turned back to the next generation of UX practitioners and leaders. And so I’m now at Bentley University. I’m teaching in the program that I actually got my graduate degree through. So it’s really, really fun. I’m actually teaching in the same classrooms that I sat in as a student. So that really will take you for a loop the first time that happens, but it’s been a great experience and I am so inspired and motivated by the students in the program who are just so engaged and so hungry. And just sharing this world with people for the first time and watching them learn these concepts and understand the importance of the type of work we do is more rewarding than I had imagined it would be. So yeah, that’s my journey to date. There’s plenty more.
Kuldeep Kelkar
Yeah, what a journey, right? From school back to being an educator, that’s an amazing journey, Janelle. So given that you have the industry experience, the consulting experience, the in-house experience, as well as an educator experience, there’s a couple of big topics that are top of mind for many designers and researchers. Of course, AI and the implications of AI. But then also, what type of skills will be needed in, say, five years? Or how does the world look like two years, five years, 10 years from now? I mean, it’s hard to make those predictions, but I’m sure you have thought about it. Your students are asking about it. So what are your thoughts around this topic?
Janelle Estes
Yeah, our students are definitely asking about it. And actually, we are leveraging some of these technologies in the classroom even now. So I think that there’s a couple of ways that you can look at the future. And I don’t think there’s any right or wrong way to do it. I do think that there is sort of one view that seems a bit more nervous. I don’t mean nervous in a negative way, but I think people are unsure. When people are unsure about the future, it is uncomfortable. And sometimes we can tend to focus on the things that might go wrong or the things that are going to be against us in the next five or 10 years, to answer your question. I think there’s also the other way to look at things, which is this is the time for us to reframe. I mean, the UX industry has been constantly shifting and evolving. I mean, when I was getting my master’s degree, people didn’t even know what UX was in most companies. And now it’s something that a lot of companies have adopted.
Another change that happened really quickly was moving from primarily in-person research to things that could be done remotely. Didn’t completely replace in-person research, but certainly took up a fair amount of the work that the team would do. And so to me, this sort of onset of artificial intelligence and the potential for us to think about how do we show up? How do we want to show up? What’s the unique value that we can provide in another five or 10 years? I see it as an opportunity and actually when I use it in my classroom, it’s really interesting to see how it can help everyone be just a little bit more efficient. It doesn’t necessarily take away the skills that are required to do this work well. So I’ll give you an example. I’m teaching a class on usability testing. So I have lots to say about this topic, as I’ve been doing in my entire career. One of the questions, the age-old questions, right, is how many people do I include in the usability test? And we’re reading all the literature now, and there’s different, you know, perspectives on it, and there’s different reasons why you might include more or less. There’s reasoning behind how you decide on a particular sample size, given the goal of what you’re trying to understand, the state of the design that you’re testing, the skill level of the person who’s doing the research. These are all inputs to make a decision about sample size. And so if I were to go to generative AI today and say, I’m doing a usability study of a prototype of the sign-up flow for a mobile app. How many people should I get feedback from? I can probably tell you somewhere between four and six, something like that. I don’t know, I should probably try right now. But what it doesn’t understand is the context, right? And that is what the students are kind of learning right now is that sure, the literature can give you a range and a recommendation, or generative AI can, but what it can’t do is consider the logic and the inputs and sort of the context of making that decision and arriving at that kind of conclusion, and being able to tell that story, and I’m giving you this as a very small example, but the other piece is our students are also putting together portfolios. And portfolio pieces are research projects that they’ve done or design projects that they’ve done. And what they can do is create a portfolio that just shows their work, right? But what we encourage them to do is in addition to the work, explain it. Why did you choose this research question? Why did you choose this method to answer it? Why did you choose these number of people to talk to or these types of people to talk to? What should the team prioritize in terms of the insight that was collected? These are the types of things that require, today, human input and input from somebody who’s close to the situation, the environment, and the context. And so, kind of back to your original question of what the world looks like. You know, I believe that the world looks like in a lot of cases, you will have technology that you can sort of consider to be a research assistant or a junior research analyst or a junior design analyst. I almost see it as a collaboration partner in a lot of cases, but what we will not sort of offload, again, at least not in the near term or the near future is sort of the critical thinking and the problem solving and the principles that you learn when you become a UX professional. Those can be applied in situations even when you are relying on some of these technologies to do your work.
Kuldeep Kelkar
Yeah, I mean, I love that example. And by the way, out of curiosity I checked ChatGPT 4 .0. And it did recommend the 5 to 8 generic stuff, which is fine. And so speaking of 5 to 8, people always quote Jakob Nielsen. And I had Jakob Nielsen a couple of weeks ago on this podcast. And he has an analogy that I think I loved and the audience loved, which is Generative AI or just AI ML in general will become a forklift for the mind. And Jakob tries to repeat that a few times because ideation becomes free or you can constantly bounce ideas, but it’s like a forklift for the mind. It can do the heavy lifting, but decisions still have to be made. Inputs, somebody still has to provide those inputs. Somebody still has to know what questions to ask, at least, for the foreseeable future. At some point, if AI is designing for AI, then who knows? That might or might not be the future. But clearly, over the next few years, it is the… who can ask the right questions, what type of questions can they ask. So it’s very interesting. You’re already teaching how to use AI within your courses. So you’re adopting fast. Because the market is moving fast.
Janelle Estes
Yeah, I mean, my philosophy is that this stuff is available in the industry today and we need to be curious, we need to be innovative. You know, back to your example of the forklift and sort of what Jakob mentioned, I can absolutely align with that. So last semester in the fall, I had 20 students who each did three interviews each. And I had them provide me with their transcripts because I was coaching them on how to do a good interview. And so I wanted to see what are the questions that they ask and, you know, what are the, I want to make sure they weren’t biasing the responses, things of that nature. So out of curiosity, because I had read through the 60 transcripts, out of curiosity, I had a sense of what the main themes were.
But I wanted to see if there was an easier, faster, more efficient way for me to arrive at those themes, write them down, document them so I could then share them back with the class. So I then put these 60 transcripts into ChatGPT. And I said, please do thematic analysis on these 60 transcripts of people talking about how grocery shopping fits into their lives. And it gave me a bulleted list of.. I think it was somewhere around 20 findings that were grouped into different themes like, time of day or items purchased or how they make decisions. And the analysis that was done was 90% there. But it was me as someone who poured over these transcripts that went in to say, you know what? No, that’s not really what happened. And I want to adjust this and tweak this, but I’ll tell you.. Even having that as a starting point, not starting from a blank slate, that is, it’s a relief to be honest with you. Now, I do have concerns about what happens when or if we get to a place where people are using these technologies that don’t actually have the depth and understanding and knowledge when they are looking at the outputs. I think that’s a totally different conversation that scares me quite a bit. But I think today, if you are, you know, you have the proper background and experience and you use these tools responsibly, I think they absolutely, to Jakob’s analogy, can be a kind of forklift for the mind.
Kuldeep Kelkar
Yeah. Yeah. Wow. My next question was, are there any examples? And you already went through two in-depth examples of… And so it’s very inspiring to see how the education system is already adapting to this. I know students are, my kids are, I mean, everyone is using it. And there are responsible ways of using it. And in your example, the key was, it got you 80%-90 % there, now somebody still has to make that decision. And that somebody, that decision will make or break the future of the product development depending on their depth of understanding and knowledge. And so the skill part still exists. Nice. Let’s move the topic to something that you are very likely very familiar with. And I’m sure you have heard this, but I’ve heard this a lot from designers and researchers that I have worked with over the last several years. And the topic often comes up, which is it’s sometimes referred to as a seat at the table, sometimes called, hey, want to increase influence. Or sometimes it comes up in the nature of, hey, we do a lot of validation research, but are not really able to influence the product direction. Or we want to collect that business impact, but we struggle. I mean, there’s a whole range of questions around this topic, which I’m sure you have heard. So let’s start with, what are your thoughts on… how can designers and researchers amplify their impact, demonstrate their impact? Where do they start?
Janelle Estes
Yeah, for sure. It’s the age old challenge, right, of our practice of UX. And I think if we think about the type of person that enters this sort of career path, they are likely curious and creative and analytical. And those are the skills that you really flex in a role like this if you are purely focused on the craft. That’s the craft itself. So as a researcher, I am endlessly curious and I have many, many questions that I would love to explore. When I’m thinking about that and the relationship to my role or my job, whether it’s here at Bentley or in prior roles like at UserTesting,
I always needed to make sure, and I still need to make sure that anything that I’m digging deeper into or anything that I’m spending my own time doing needs to ultimately impact some larger goal that the organization has. And that’s something that I had to learn the hard way. And so what I recommend to people who are doing this type of work is
So if you have to make the clip. So if you’re collaborating with a product team, or maybe you’re even a group that is centralized, and sort of what I like to call it, taking orders from the business, and ideally what you’re doing is collaborating with the person who’s submitting the ticket, if you will, to make sure that you’re answering the right question and in the right way versus just being the order taker. But ideally in either of those situations, you understand in the broader context of what information, what are they going to do with the information that you collect? And how will you measure the impact of that? So if you’re working within a product team and they’re interested in potentially building a new feature and you are tasked with doing some discovery research around whether or not this is something the market or customer is actually asking for and better understanding the problem you’re trying to solve. That type of information and insights that you provide should be linked to one, if and when that product feature does actually ship, what does that do to the core metrics that the business cares about, whether that’s user engagement or new users, or two, if you decide and figure out that, you know, it doesn’t make sense for us to build this feature, then what money did you just save the business in terms of chasing something that ultimately wasn’t going to be successful in the market?
So think about it as a business owner or think about it as, how do I take my work and tie it to something, whether that’s generating revenue or generating great things for the business or reducing costs or reducing risk.
And so that’s generally how I’ve operated. I can give you some examples if you want, but hopefully that gives you a good sense.
Kuldeep Kelkar
Yeah, please do. I would love to hear some examples. And at the end of the day, almost, not almost, all businesses are in the business of either making money or saving money. And the leaders that are making those decisions understand those two things really, really well. And as long as the UX community can connect the dots, yeah, it starts making sense. But yes, would love to hear those examples.
Janelle Estes
Yeah, so I can share one from my UserTesting days. So this was actually related to a new feature that we were advocating we should build. And there was hesitation within the business in terms of getting people on board. Is this something we really want to invest our teams and build? Do we want our teams to invest in building this thing? Is it going to actually move our metrics and the metrics being getting new customers, keeping our existing customers, growing our existing customers? Is this something that’s actually going to make an impact on those metrics? And again, hesitation in the business whether this was worth it or not. And we ended up going out and talking to a bunch of customers, especially customers who are in our biggest accounts that were the ones that were spending a lot of money with us, but also getting a ton of value from us in terms of they had teams that were engaging with us. And we really wanted to make sure that our product was something that was delivering against their needs. And so we talked to the customers and the general consensus was, yes, this was something that the teams would use and that we really wanted to try to get the product team and others on board with building. And there was still hesitation because it was sort of like, well, what customers did you talk to and what accounts were they from? And are you sure that these are the right people? The sort of arguments you get around more of this qualitative work. So then I was working with a partner on the sales side about it. And he was like, you know what we should do? We should build a case around how much revenue is attached to the customers who agreed with the importance of this feature. So that’s what we did. We went through, we did a little sample, and we made this prediction that X percent of our customers would find this useful, and that equates to X amount of recurring revenue for our business. And that is when people said, oh, yep, we should definitely pursue this. And so I think that was a really big learning lesson for me because I tend to be a really good storyteller. Like I can convince you and get you on board with ideas, but like my magic wasn’t working in this situation. And I was like, why isn’t anybody getting on board with this idea? But it was because I hadn’t really understood the language that my internal end users were really attracted to, right? Or were really driven or motivated by. And once I cracked the code on that and started speaking their language attached to my learnings, it was like, poof, it was like, why didn’t I think of this? I mean, this was a feature that we had been talking about for probably three years at that point.
Kuldeep Kelkar
You probably also, by the way, in your example answered my next question, which is, should the UX community speak the business language? And if so, how? I guess the answer is yes, and you already had an example for it. So it’s fantastic. Yeah.
Janelle Estes
Yeah, I swear I didn’t even look at your guide either, Kuldeep. But yes, absolutely. Ultimately, the team is there because, and you live within a business or an organization that is being held to particular goals or standards or metrics, and you are part of that team. It’s that idea of what’s that analogy of everybody rowing in the same direction. We’re all rowing in the same direction and we need to show. So my other sort of big takeaway from spending so many years in the industry is…
UX people kind of need to show up where everyone else already is. So instead of creating our own language and our own processes and our own sort of practice that tends to get pushed aside in all fairness and all honesty.
Instead of creating new ways of doing work or new frameworks, show up where the organization already is. So if you’re following a particular product development framework, integrate into that. If you have plans to expand into a particular new market this year, find out ways to help make that happen successfully. I think sometimes we tend to think of ourselves outside of the business or maybe even evaluating and sort of what was the word I recently heard? I think it was from Judd Anton, not validating, but like the opposite of validating, like we’re trying to, like, I think sometimes UXers can feel like they’re in the business of pointing out things that are wrong or aren’t working well. And yes, that’s part of your role, but the other part of your role is cooperating and being a good team member and saying, okay, ultimately, if this is the decision that the team has made, and this is what we’re driving towards, how can I make that the best experience possible? How can I make that the best thing for our end users? And ultimately the larger world, which is a whole other conversation, but I think speaking the business language as UXers is one of the most important skills.
Kuldeep Kelkar
Absolutely. So this is very interesting. I do some mentoring sessions, not quite an educator like you are with a full class. But the questions tend to also come up with our back to that influence thing. So in your experience, what are some of the skills that both designers and researchers are really good at. But then also, what are some of the skills that they, in general, I mean, it will change from person to person, but in general, within the community, what skills should the designer or researcher focus on? And what are they good at, and what should, where’s their room for improvement, and what should they work on?
Janelle Estes
Yeah, I think as I mentioned earlier, I think our strong points, strong sort of skill set when we go into a role in UX is that we’re creative, we’re problem solvers, we’re curious, we want to fix things. And I think that’s where we get… I know I personally and other people in my network, we get sort of our motivation from that. Like how do I take the world outside of my organization and try to bring it into it so people are more aware of what are the things we should be doing or could be doing or what are customers asking for? And I think we are good at that. I think where we could be better at two things. One is taking that information and sharing it. And that’s beyond just a research report or a readout. How do you build a narrative around your customers and what you’re building for and what the needs are outside of your building or outside of your Zoom meetings, now that a lot of us aren’t in buildings anymore. But how do we bring people along? I know I mentioned a couple of times, but…
Thinking about your internal stakeholders is another version of your customers. Take the work that you do to understand your customers and turn that back into your internal organization and do the same thing. You’ve got two sets of customers. You’ve got to figure out how to speak the language of both.
So that’s one sort of area where I think we could get better is sort of making and bringing our work to life in ways that resonate with people within our organization. So it’s sort of like, you know, figuring out how to craft our work in a way where it’s relevant to them. The other is deep diving into the things that keep them up at night and the things that maybe we want to run away from. I mean, the first time I looked at a balance sheet or an annual report, like my eyes crossed. This stuff for most people is not that fun. And it, but you have to know it. You have to be able to sit in a meeting, especially if you move further and further up the ladder and know what these words are that people are using and how the business is run. Because if not, you can’t, you can’t keep up and you don’t know how to be relevant if you’re not exposing yourself to what’s relevant to them. Why are you laughing?
Kuldeep Kelkar
Yeah. I love the second one because I often joke that I have an honorary MBA from Google search. When someone says EBITDA, in the meeting, I’m searching EBITDA and how is it calculated. When someone says gross margin, I kind of know what it is, but just want to be sure. I mean, we refer to top line, bottom line, but I agree. Our community in general needs to understand enough. We’re not expecting everyone to go have an MBA in finance, but the basics of the business is not that hard to understand. It’s how much money are we making? How much are we spending? A couple of categories and how much is the net profit? And at the end of the day, it’s not that different from your personal budgeting. Yes, there’s complexities. Yes, there is. There’s this type of revenue versus that type of revenue, recurring versus not recurring, so on and so forth. But if there is enough interest, there are enough resources out there where you can just find it. It’s publicly available. And then the most important thing, I think what you said was speaking that business language back to the stakeholders. That way they know that you know, which is also important. And then the trust increases. 100% agreed.
Janelle Estes
Totally. I was so fortunate with my time at UserTesting because when I showed up, I was a researcher and I was really interested in doing cool research projects and I still am today. But the further and further I went up the leadership ranks, the more and more I felt like I was out of my wheelhouse. And so I like to say I have an honorary MBA from that. That experience was so eye opening for me. It was like, no, you can’t sit at your executive team meeting and talk about, and I mean, we were UserTesting. Like we had software that allowed people to do unmoderated remote qualitative card sorting. That’s, you know, open card sort with you know between subject, like this language is just you need to know what to have conversation with your peers but like leave it there because it’s totally alienating and what also is alienating is when you show up in the conversation then you don’t know their language so it’s a very sort of deliberate… you’ve got to work to understand if you want to show up and be relevant in these conversations.
Kuldeep Kelkar
Yeah, I’m smiling because you took me back to my own personal 2015, 2016 and 17 where I was at UserZoom as you know, right now UserZoom and UserTesting are one, but back in the day we were competitors and every time there is a new sales rep or a new CRO, and me talking about open card sort versus closed card sort, I could see them yawning in the back of their race. It has to be step by step. It’s not cool. I mean, Janelle, I have so many more questions, but we have to land this plane somewhere. And so my last question for you would be more for people that have been in the industry for a while. They have been a practitioner, either a designer or a researcher. And oftentimes they are thinking about, hey, now I want to move into leadership. And so some of them are hesitant in becoming a people leader because they are more craftsmen. They want to stick with their craft and others that more enjoy the people leadership or just leadership in general and are okay with moving a little bit further away from the craft. It’s a hard decision for many of them. You have gone through many of these cycles. You have led teams. You have coached different people. You’re also educating. What are your thoughts on people who are in this, let’s call them, between five to 10 years of their career and are thinking of these things? What are your recommendations?
Janelle Estes
Yeah, I think there likely is, you will know, in my opinion, I think you’ll know in sort of like trust your gut in terms of what’s going to be your why or what’s gonna be the reason that you wake up every day. And I’m somewhat sad that it feels like the only option as you get better and more senior is to lead people. Because I don’t actually think that’s the answer for everyone. I think there are a lot of people that are really good at the craft. And in order for them to be promoted or make more money or what have you, they have to move into people leadership. So if that’s a path that is inherently interesting to you or something that you want to do by all means, exploring it is important and getting mentors and coaches and reading books and listening to podcasts, I think I went through that transition and it was jarring to go from just doing my work every day to managing the work of other people. That all being said, I think I also encourage people to look for opportunities to expand their craft in different ways. So for example, if you have a particular… you’re spending your time doing a particular activity or maybe you’re focused on a particular industry or maybe you are focused on, let’s say a certain type of product or experience, whether that be digital or maybe some of these newer technologies that are out now, I would look for opportunities to sort of double down on that knowledge and that expertise. Because I really do see a path and there are paths at certain organizations. For example, let’s say you work at a consulting firm and you are focused on the financial services sector and you are an individual contributor for some period of time and then you become sort of a principal. You know, that was some of the pathways that we created at UserTesting was for people to sort of own a domain or industry and not necessarily manage people. So it would say looking for those opportunities. If you’re not entirely sure that you want to go into leadership, I just wouldn’t want to encourage everyone to feel like that’s the only option because I think there are other options. There are other options too where you can actually go into management. And if you decide it’s not for you, you can go back to IC or individual contributor. I’ve seen that path too. But I think, you need to know what is motivating for you, what gives you drive, where you find your joy, because there’s nothing worse than being in a role that isn’t a good fit. So if that means that you are an IC for the foreseeable future and you are focused on the things that make you happy and give you motivation, so be it. I don’t think we should always be chasing the next promotion or the next title.
Kuldeep Kelkar
Yeah, well said. I mean, at the end of the day, what makes you happy is the core question to answer. Sometimes it’s harder to answer than it feels. It’s a simple question, but sometimes it takes a while to get to that answer or know what that true answer is. And sometimes that answer changes every three years, five years. Life happens.
Janelle Estes
Right. I think the other thing to think about too is that when you become a people leader, you’re not just leading people and managing a group, you’re managing up too. And I think that that one will fly inside you if you’re not aware that that actually becomes… a pretty important part of your role is communicating your team’s success to, you know, across your peer leaders, but also up to upper management. And so it takes on a whole new scope of its own, but you know that.
Kuldeep Kelkar
Now, Janelle. Well said, thank you so much. Very insightful conversation. Always interesting.
Janelle Estes
Yeah, thank you for having me. Whoever would have thought Kuldeep that we would be chatting together as former competitors.
Kuldeep Kelkar
Yeah, I would not have envisioned this five years ago, but certainly so many things happen and things change. So I love this conversation. Thank you, Janelle. Very, very insightful. Thank you to you again on behalf of the listeners. Thank you listeners for tuning in. Stay tuned. We have many more episodes to go in this season. Thank you, everyone. Bye -bye.
Janelle Estes
Thank you.
